GOP Hopes Elections Will Stall Healthcare

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>>> We have a previous poster here (ttnewton, below) who claims he gets no benefit
>>> from government military protection, police protection, courts of law, prisons,
>>> fire departments, schools, roads, public landfills, Medicare, Social Security,
>>> regulated utilities, the FDIC, the Federal Reserve, or any other social thing
>>> provided or controlled by government.
One important component which defines a socialist program is that one "class" of citizen is defined who is forced to pay for the program, and a different "class" of citizen is defined who is allowed to enjoy the benefits of the program. I don't consider public roads, police protection, national defense, or many other government programs socialist because they do not meet that simple criteria of socialism. To the extent there are benefits to non-socialist government programs, all taxpayers enjoy the generally comparable OPPORTUNITY to utilize and benefit from them.
But taking something we both support - public roads - for example, how would you feel if you were prohibited from driving upon them based upon your economic "class"? To make it particularly distasteful for you, imagine that you could watch people in my economic "class" drive to work down the roads you helped pay for, while you commuted by walking, or maybe flying if you could afford it, so long as you stayed off the "public" roads. Furthermore, to really make it hit home, what if you had paid 50x the taxes that went toward building those roads, than us allowed to drive upon them. Then to top it off, what if we called you arrogant scum as we drove by, because you resented our entitlements. If you will walk a mile in those moccasins, you may begin to understand why socialist programs are an affront to anyone who pays taxes, let alone to anyone who pays far more than their fair share.
I believe all taxpayers of our Country should be afforded "equal OPPORTUNITY" to enjoy the benefits of those collected taxes. So I am fundamentally against special entitlements that legally restrict tax-funded opportunities to only citizens of a particular economic class, race, or gender.
>>> You can believe that whatever taxes you pay are going to support the things you
>>> like in government. ... Or, you can believe your money is going to whatever
>>> government efforts are helpful to the business you're in or helpful to the
>>> customers who support it. ...
I'm not a member of the party that thinks what people are led to believe actually changes reality.
>>> You can load your gun and sit up nights if you want to--waiting to defend against
>>> whomever you think is coming to rob you for health care. I doubt you'll find
>>> anyone to shoot. It sure won't be me.
In fact, when socialist laws are enacted, they will be enforced by the armed law enforcement I pay for more than you - and believe in. (How ironic.) Describing this unjust confiscation as armed robbery by socialists such as yourself is a figure of speech.

ttnewton of AK 3:26PM September 23, 2009

You can believe that whatever taxes you pay are going to support the things you like in government. There are lots of choices. For instance, you can earmark your part all for defense and wars if you like. Those efforts need plenty of money to pay for the unfunded efforts of the past 8 years plus whatever we'll need in the future. Or, you can believe your money is going to whatever government efforts are helpful to the business you're in or helpful to the customers who support it. There is public education that needs lots of money, if you believe in that. There are roads and bridges, if you use and like those.
I will choose to believe, as well, that my taxes go to support things I like and believe in. I will also put my vote in things I like and believe in.
You can load your gun and sit up nights if you want to--waiting to defend against whomever you think is coming to rob you for health care. I doubt you'll find anyone to shoot. It sure won't be me.

Muser of NM 10:03AM September 23, 2009

For crying out loud, there's enough money to go around. It isn't anyone's own money unless they hide it in their mattress, in which case it does them no good. Money needs to be cieculating in the system for it to be useful. Every other developed nation has socialized medicare, it's about time the US caught up with the rest of the world. Funny I never hear conservative types complaining about "socialized" defense spending (which it is: government runs it, everybody pays into it). If Americans who don't agree with the war in Iraq have to pay taxes to support the DoD, then Americans who don't agree with healthcare reform can do likewise and fork over some cash. The cold war ended, stop worrying about the socialists taking over and get off the chicken little express. The sky isn't falling. Besides, if the US can come together over healthcare (like every other developed nation has done) it might just scare the terrorists a bit to see America united.

Jim Rahn 4:23AM September 23, 2009

>>>We don't give a darn about you and your money.
Fine, Muser. We're in agreement then! Just leave me and my money out of it. Fat chance that, eh?
>>>We plan to do health care without your support, and probably without the support of a single Republican...
Nice to see you putting aside the pretense of bi-partisanship. I always suspected that whole line. Guess I was right about that, too.
>>>the whole lot of you being drunk on your own arrogance and that of Limbaugh and Beck.
I hardly know anything of Limbaugh. I've never heard of Beck. But for my part, maybe you are mistaking my anger for arrogance. I'm angry about being robbed by smooth-talking politicians who plan to use my stolen livelihood to pay their voting block for putting them in office. You say the insurance industry is robbing us. But you have a choice not to pay them if you don't think their product is worth their price. Your socialist healthcare plans leave no such choice for me. You demand I pay for the partisan socialist plan you admit you are going to ramrod down my throat, and then have the gall to call me arrogant for objecting to it. Well, at least your true colors are now showing for anyone not blinded by personality and smooth talk. God help us.
>>>As for my wishing for mechanics to help taxpayers get their money's worth with health care, I wasn't offering you personal help.
No, I didn't misunderstand you. I know your agenda is specifically - NOT - to help me, nor the likes of taxpayers like me. I've long since gotten that message. My job is to pay for the benefits. It's someone ELSE's job to receive them.
>>>You're cocksure you're an island to yourself, dude! You've made that perfectly clear. (Probably a uniquely Alaskan thing.)
Nice barb. I don't think I'm an island to myself. I need the help of sane fellow citizens. I think the sane should band together to defend ourselves against those who would rob us of our livelihoods and liberties at the point of a gun, those such as yourself, for example. I'm hoping sanity will make a showing in 2010.
>>>You did not answer the argument, though, that it's just as likely that I'll subsidize your health care as you subsidizing mine. Insurance is like that, whether you buy if from corporations and pay too much or whether you buy it from government. Hope you dotted all your i's and crossed your t's on your ap, though. Because you'll never know for sure what you've got in coverage until you file that big claim and endure the string of tricks and delays to actually collect.
Well, like I said. It's different when it's private healthcare, because you don't have to buy it if you don't like it. But when the government takes it over, then you have to buy it whether you like it or not. Why don't you band together with like-minded, form your own health cooperative, and leave me out of it? What's to stop you? Oh, I forgot... you need somebody else to pay for it.

ttnewton of AK 1:19AM September 23, 2009

We're not moving to other countries on your suggestion. We don't give a darn about you and your money. We plan to do health care without your support, and probably without the support of a single Republican---the whole lot of you being drunk on your own arrogance and that of Limbaugh and Beck.
As for my wishing for mechanics to help taxpayers get their money's worth with health care, I wasn't offering you personal help. You're cocksure you're an island to yourself, dude! You've made that perfectly clear. (Probably a uniquely Alaskan thing.)
You did not answer the argument, though, that it's just as likely that I'll subsidize your health care as you subsidizing mine. Insurance is like that, whether you buy if from corporations and pay too much or whether you buy it from government. Hope you dotted all your i's and crossed your t's on your ap, though. Because you'll never know for sure what you've got in coverage until you file that big claim and endure the string of tricks and delays to actually collect.

Muser of NM 10:16PM September 22, 2009

85% of americans like there healthcare so whats the deal its really those rich white folks who need to be held up side down and shaken very well. I do believe this the White House wants what acorn whats to overwhelm the system. So if this occurs the goverment will move into save the TO BIG TO FAIL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM,and replace it with the single payer system is the same in just about every field in the public square. They want to get rid of FOX NEWS as soon as possible and Rush Limbaugh as well you know I lived in Germany in the early 80s they dont have poor people there you know why because everyone gets a TOP NOTCH EDUCATION americans are not educated period look at the aweful numbers only 65% of african americans graduate from H.S and only 50%of latinas and 50%of latinas are pregnant by age 20 and whites arent any better 23% of whites dont know who was the 1st president was!!!!

kmg of VA 9:58PM September 22, 2009

>>>The conservayives are always crying about money!
Stop stealing their money, and I bet they'll stop crying about it.
>>>Who receives more handouts and subsidies than the wealthy? the rich land owners for example, not the poorer farmers.
Stop all handouts. Fine with me.
>>>Who employ costly accountants to avoid paying tax?.
I employ a costly accountant. I pay 50x the taxes of the average American taxpayer.
>>>who possesses swiss bank accounts to avoid paying tax?
Not me.
>>>Who pay (pro rata) hard working people subsistent wages, compared to europeans counterparts?
Huh?
>>>Who is blind to the fact that the poor of America suffer in silence extreme poverty and privation. and with both husbands and wives working still can't afford your crappy health insurance schemes?
My wife and I both work. Life ain't a bed of roses.
>>>Who close their eyes to families who can't afford overpriced medicine for their children?
Huh? There's our socialist Medicaid system for the poor in America. You can't be talking about the American poor, can you? Oh, wait... Maybe you're referring to the fact that government-run socialized medicine - to the extent we already have it - doesn't work very well, and is STILL not affordable. In that case, you think it's bad now, just wait until Obama drives private healthcare out of business.
>>>I'LL TELL YOU WHO:- THE VERY RICH, THE EXTREMELY RICH AND THE FILTHY RICH. THAT'S WHO.
Yep. Throw anyone who's worked hard, invested, and succeeded into the same boat with criminal tax avoiders and thoughtless scammers. If you villanize those you want rob, it's so much easier on your conscience.
>>>They begrudge the American people what every European has. A decent health care system OF WHICH WE ARE ALL PROUD OF
That's a great idea! Hey, you and Muser and Obama all move to one of those European countries that have great socialist health care, and just leave remaining in the U.S. those citizens willing to pay their own way.

ttnewton of AK 9:14PM September 22, 2009

The conservayives are always crying about money!
Who receives more handouts and subsidies than the wealthy? the rich land owners for example, not the poorer farmers.
Who employ costly accountants to avoid paying tax?.
who possesses swiss bank accounts to avoid paying tax?
Who pay (pro rata) hard working people subsistent wages, compared to europeans counterparts?
Who is blind to the fact that the poor of America suffer in silence extreme poverty and privation. and with both husbands and wives working still can't afford your crappy health insurance schemes?
Who close their eyes to families who can't afford overpriced medicine for their children?
I'LL TELL YOU WHO:- THE VERY RICH, THE EXTREMELY RICH AND THE FILTHY RICH. THAT'S WHO.
They begrudge the American people what every European has. A decent health care system OF WHICH WE ARE ALL PROUD OF

LOUIS OVERS of CA 8:40PM September 22, 2009

Muser, it doesn't appear to me that your socialist agenda seeks to get me my money's worth. Anyway, I can handle that just fine without your help, thank you. So we can dispense with the ruse that you're doing me a favor, OK? You're doing yourself a favor, at my expense. Your true intent is not to get me my money's worth, but to get you my money. Since I am unwilling to hand it over to someone who doesn't deserve it, you will demand it by government mandate. How is that unlike all the other socialist champions I named? You'll have the audacity to call ME greedy, next, I predict.
And no, my private pay insurance is not socialist. It is a private, mutually agreed sharing of risk, but one I willingly pay for to receive the benefits of that sharing. You, on the other hand, want me to pay for benefits destined only to be accessible to someone other than myself and taxpayers like me. Meanwhile, the benefits I'm receiving now you will deny me, or else I will pay a fine (rather, eh..., tax) to maintain them, assuming they are available at all after your central committee enacts its next five year plan.

ttnewton of AK 8:27PM September 22, 2009

whether you will end up subsidizing my health care or I will end up subsidizing yours. I have paid into health plans (both group and individual when I too ran my own business for ten years) all my life and my wife and I are still paying into them now. Same with taxes.
Your insistence below that I (and all liberals) are freeloaders but that you and the conservatives are the backbone of the country is getting a bit tiring.
You may have a half-million dollar claim on your "$10,000-deductible" insurance any moment and all the other policyholders in the whole risk pool could just as easily subsidize YOU as the other way around.
So, being unwilling as you are to recognize that even your private-pay insurance is "socialistic" to that extent (and UNNECESSARILY EXPENSIVE FOR THE SAKE OF CORPORATIONS BECAUSE YOU AND YOUR ILK INSIST ON BLOCKING REFORM AND ENABLING THEM TO KEEP ON RAPING THE COUNTRY), now you're into likening me to Stalin, Lenin and Mao. You wouldn't be one of those mustache painters on the Obama posters, would you? And as for ridiculing taxpayers, you're paranoid. I didn't. I'd like to help them get their money's worth for a change.

Muser of NM 7:59PM September 22, 2009