A New Lobbying Force for Gay Rights: Clergy

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Christianity, in its origins, was a truth religion. I hesitate to even call it a "religion" because, to me, Christianity is not a religion but the truth of the world as revealed by God Himself. You misunderstand Paul's comment in Galatians. Are you suggesting that Paul is saying males and females no longer exist? Being one in Christ is refering to importance. There is no difference with regards to salvation between male and female. But the truth of God as established in the Old Testament does not change or else God is a liar. And He is not. Alhough it is true God loves all human beings do not confuse this with a condoning of sinful behavior as if all is permissable in His sight. God is Love but He is also Holy and Just. To focus on only one attribute of God while igmoring the others is to make for yourself an idol.
Again, I repeat. Just because you are against homosexuality does not mean you hate gays. I am not saying that gays are not mistreated and discriminated against. I am not ignorant. It is wrong to treat homosexuals unlovingly just as it is wrong to treat any other person unlovingly. However, that does not mean the behavior is acceptable and as being within God's standards. The bible clearly states in several places that homosexuality is unatural, sinful, and an abomination to God. You may not like it but it is the truth. Now does that mean homosexuals should be killed, beat up, shunned, kicked out, disowned,and fired? Absolutely not. Should they be rebuked and encouraged to turn from their sin? Absolutely. Just as if I was in a particular sin I would want someone who loves me and cares about me to rebuke me and to show me why I am in the wrong so that I may repent of my sin and turn from it.
The Greek word "arsenokoites" essentailly means homosexual. It refers to a sodomite; a male lying with another male as if with a woman and it is sin.
You said: "The good news is that God loves and forgives those who embrace his love."
To put it more in biblical terms God loves all and forgives those who repent of their sins (acknowledge they are wrong and turn from the sin) and place their trust (faith) in Jesus Christ.
You also said: "That is no different for: "fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, arsenokites, malakos, thieves, the greedy drunkards, revilers, robbers."
I agree. But if you are born again of the Spirit (i.e- you are a Christian) you should desire to do the will of your Father in heaven. If your Father in heaven calls homosexuality an abomination why would you want to continue in it and call it good?
I do not have a "largely culturally induced sense of traditional marriage". I have a biblical sense of marriage. One that says God made them male and female and for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. That is completely biblical.
To say God approves of homosexuality is highly selective reading of the Bible to confirm your bias on this matter.

Doc of FL 12:05AM July 31, 2009

Doc, thanks for your condolences.
I am trying desperately to avoid the sort of arrogant nonsense that Isaiah pointed out in the religious practices and conduct of the rich, satisfied, complacent, abusers of the poor and minorities of his day.
Christianity, in its origins, was neither a "pro-homosexual religion" nor a "pro-heterosexual religion." How could it be? Their earliest author, Paul, tells us in Galatians that "there is no longer male and female; you are all one in Christ Jesus." Christianity is a God loves all human beings religion.
The evidence that socially conservative peoples "hate gays" includes, but is not limited to their being "against homosexuality." It shows up in their: killing gays, beating up gays, shunning gays, kicking gays out of their churches, disowning them in their families, firing them from their jobs, dismissing them from their colleges, and enthusiastically condemning them publicly.
I regret that I misread you on the relationship between righteousness and God's love. It is encouraging to see that you recognize that God loves and died for all sinners.
Now, the issue is whether God's forgiveness of GLBT persons is for their sexual orientation and/or behavior, or for their actual sins of sometimes telling lies, sometimes being gluttons, sometimes being self-centered, etc.
You referred to a catalogue of "sins"--apparently from 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, given that is one such list that is sometimes translated as including "homosexuals." [By the way that is significantly different than the catalogue of sins found in Isaiah 5.]
What are we to make of the Greek word "arsenokoites"? That word made its initial appearance in Greek texts in this passage, without a clarifying context. 1 Corinthians 6:9 uses this word. [It was also much later used by the pseudo-Pauline author of 1 Timothy.] Etymologically it refers to a male, and to lying together in bed. Recent English translations of that term are all over the map: "male prostitutes," "catamites," "sodomites," "homosexuals," "practicing homosexuals," "self-indulgent," "boy prostitutes," and "those who use and abuse sex."
The good news is that God loves and forgives those who embrace his love. That is no different for: "fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, arsenokites, malakos, thieves, the greedy drunkards, revilers, robbers." Are we to conclude that all of these persons are to be denied the opportunity to marry the persons they love? Are they all to be denied the same rights that the rest of us have who have avoided these precise offenses?
It strikes me that you have a largely culturally induced sense of "traditional marriage" and are highly selective in your reading of the Bible to confirm your prejudices on this matter. I find it interesting that after he got over his love affair with Jonathan who got killed young, David (and later his son Solomon) loved marriage so much they did it time and time again--without any divorces.

Asinus Gravis of TX 10:23PM July 30, 2009

You may have taken JLR's post on its "most charitable reading" but I believe you would be in error. It appears to me that JLR was using the verse in Isaiah to rebuke those who are in favor of homosexuality of which the Bible states is a sin. Although the verse in Isaiah is not specifically dealing with homosexuality it is refering to those who call evil good and good evil. JLR points out that the body of Christ would not accept such "blatant disobedience and unrepentant sin". Are you suggesting that he meant being against same-sex marriage is blatant disobedience and unrepentant sin? I may be wrong but I don't think so.
You said: "We have a very large number of people today in the USA who are very much like those Isaiah was criticizing. They twisted their religion to suit their own prejudices and preferences."
I agree. Like those who twist Christianity into a pro-homosexual religion to suit thire own sins and preferences.
It is dishonest to suggest that just because someone is against homosexuality that they hate gays. This is just blatantly untrue. If you believe that, then it is equally valid to say you hate people who are against homosexuality, something you, of course deny. If it is true of others why is it not true of you? That is hypocritical.
I too despise the corruption of the Christian religion by those who wish to dignify their sins and preferences; something many within the gay community are doing. But that doesn't mean I hate gays.
You said: "Doc seems to be under the illusion that one first becomes "righteous" and then God relents and begins to love him/her--"
This is untrue. I never said such a thing. The Bible actually teaches the opposite. In Roman 5:8 it says "But God demonstrates own His love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". The Bible says sinners includes liars, homosexuals, thieves, blasphemers, adulterers, murderers, fornicators, drunkards, etc. I include myself in that list. The Bible says that none of those people (liars, homosexuals, thieves, blasphemers, adulterers, murderers, fornicators, drunkards) will inherit the kingdom of God. It appears you have little understanding of Christianity and the truth it conveys.
It is this sort of thing Isaiah was talking about. That people call good what God clearly calls an abomination. Something you appear to be doing.
Just because "in our longer religious tradition polygamy was widely practiced as "traditional" marriage" (which can be disputed) does not mean that it was right or acceptable to God. God did not create the institution of marriage as polygamist or same-sex. God created them male and female. Male and female He created them. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh" (Genesis 2:24)
I am sorry about the death of your spouse. I really am. But don't do yourself the things you claim others are doing. Twisting religion to suit your preferences

Doc of FL 7:05PM July 30, 2009

Doc, JLR did not mention advocates of same-sex marriage; he did not mention who was good and who was evil; he did not identify what disobedience or sin he was assuming. Certainly, the passage in Isaiah 5:20 does not mention anything germain to your view. I took JLR's comments on their most charitable reading.
Isaiah 5:20 was selected from a lengthy song about the social injustice of the Jewish people, that led to their subsequent conquest and exile. Isaiah identifies those social sins: wealthy land grabbers (who violated the Torah), lavish spending on fancy homes, drunkenness, excessive luxury, assuming they were furthering God's plan and that they were doing good, corrupting justice with bribes, and depriving the poor of their rights. Notice there is not the slightest hint here about opposing "traditional marriage," or supporting "same-sex marriage." Isaiah is discussing the sins of the leaders and fat cats of his time in Judah. [I wonder if they had their own political party then too.]
Isaiah's fellow countrymen managed to so distort their own religious traditions that they could comfortably look down their noses on those among them that they disliked and disapproved of. They had no use for the requirement that they not only love God, but also love their neighbor. The people Isaiah criticized did not ignore their poor neighbors, they abused them, they oppressed them, they certainly did not love them.
We have a very large number of people today in the USA who are very much like those Isaiah was criticizing. They twisted their religion to suit their own prejudices and preferences. Foremost among them, in my view, are those who try to disguise their disapproval and repression of LGBT persons, as a "religious" matter. Although they throw around the term "love" to decorate their hatred of LGBT persons, they are far from loving their neighbor as they so much love themselves.
I do not hate those persons; rather I despise their corruption of the Christian religion to try to dignify their cultural prejudices.
Doc seems to be under the illusion that one first becomes "righteous" and then God relents and begins to love him/her--but only so long as we conform to Doc's idea of what counts as "righteous." That, as I see it, is a basic heresy running under the name of Christianity. That is the sort of thing Isaiah talked about too.
As for traditional marriage, the fact is that what counts as "traditional" marriage changes a lot over time. When I was a child divorces--about which Jesus does have something to say--were relatively rare and somewhat shameful, so that they were not suitable subject matter for polite conversation. Today, divorces are at least as common and frequent as marriages. In our longer religious tradition polygamy was widely practiced as "traditional" marriage. As for my own view about marriage, I had a wonderful forty+ year marriage that was ended by the death of my spouse; I was never divorced.

Asinus Gravis of TX 3:37PM July 30, 2009

I do not believe Asinus Gravis understood JLR's post. It appears JLR was stating that he is against same-sex marriages or homosexuality but apparently Asinus thought he was repudiating opponents of same-sex marriages. Regardless, Asinus seems to think that because one is against same-sex marriage they are saturated with hate. Using the same rhetoric and twisted logic of Asinus Gravis I would have to say that this person Asinus, who seems to be against people who are solely for traditional marriage, hates these people who are against same-sex marriages. Usining her logic she is a hate-saturated opponent of people for traditional marriage. Yes, God loves us all but He hates sin. He loves us all but asks us to "Go and sin no more". Asinus appears to be the one confused about what is "good" and what is "bad". If only Asinus would open up to the truth of God's Laws, and realize that God demands righteousness for all His creatures.

Doc of FL 1:59PM July 30, 2009

SHALL NEVER BE ACCEPTED
"Homosexuality shall never be accepted. In the writings of the good Fathers, My child and My children, you were made fully aware in the Old and the New Testament of the Book of life and love, the Bible--you had been made full aware of the dastardly acts of mankind, as men consort with men. This shall not be accepted nor condoned by the Eternal Father even if He has to send another plague upon you."

SD 7:46PM July 29, 2009

Thanks, JLR, for your repudiation of the hate-saturated opponents of same-sex marriage. They are clearly sinful and confuse good with bad, piety with sin. If only they would open themselves up to the non-sex-based love of God, and realize that God loves all of his creatures.

Asinus Gravis of TX 6:48PM July 29, 2009

The true church and body of Christ will never embrace such blantant disobedience and unrepentant sin in our faith
or leadership/teaching/positional offices.
The truth of God will stand forever and His Word is pure.
"Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" [Isaiah 5:20]

Jamel Lucky Robinson of NY 6:10PM July 29, 2009

In my Bible it says that, we should be fruitful(have children). How can you be fruitful, if you are with the same sex. Adoption is not the right answer, because you are just raising someone elses child.

CC of MO of MO 4:30PM July 29, 2009

I am so glad to see clergy becoming involved with the struggle for LGBTQ rights. Those who can see only negativity and sin in this need to look deeply within themselves and see why their God is so hateful and exclusionist. Your god is most certainly not my God/dess!
With all the hatred and exclusivity being spewed by Woodenfrog, NJ I think that the chances of a loving, non-condemnatory GLBT person on Judgement Day might be better than those of Woodenfrog. "As much as ye have done it to the least of these, my brothers, ye have done it unto me."

Bishop Ioan of AZ 4:25PM July 29, 2009