Finishing Up the New Grad School Rankings

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The first word in the second paragraph has a typo.

Jen C. of CT 5:03PM February 25, 2009

It would be great if the rankings placed greater stress on where exactly the schools will get you for residency. In other words, residency reputation scores/peer assessment scores are far more useful than lump sum research money (which in US News apparently do not use proper NIH classifications and are inclusive of independent hospitals with teaching affiliations). Take HMS for example. There are so many hospitals (that are not university hospitals), but the ultimate reflection of quality of education is limited by the best hospital of the group, Mass General, which is clinically #5 in the country by US News and itself not the leading individual research hospital (though it is amongst independent hospitals). As you are not simultaneously experiencing the faculty of each of the three major medical centers all at once, the faculty:student ratio does not make much sense in this case. Again, proper NIH classification and greater emphasis on residency director reputation/peer assessment scores will reduce the bias of basing the research list purely on total research money rather than funding/quality per individual medical center.

Richard Smith of CA 5:58PM February 20, 2009

I know that usnews was aware of that practice and is now ranking accordingly. I don't know what procedure they are taking, or if it will be taken into account for the 2010 rankings. However, I do know that some local schools are changing their admissions policies because that loophole is closing.

It was a pretty shady practice schools were engaging in - trying to hide students by admitting them part-time for a semesster so they could make an extra buck without affecting their ranking.

Brad of DC 3:03PM February 20, 2009

To "Ben" from CA:

Really, Ben? Are you serious?

Apparently, you have little sense of reality or none at all, for that matter. Just because you went to Cooley and are stuck doing that kind of work, doesn't mean everyone else is - who's not in the "top 10" (whatever that means)!

Or, perhaps, I sense a disgruntled law school applicant who wants to make himself feel better by putting others down since HE didn't get into law school.

Perhaps, try waking up to reality, Ben! Don't worry, things will get better if you do.

Shawn of LA 4:48AM February 18, 2009

No matter what you think of the rankings system, if you don't go to a top 10 law school you'll be schlepping dog-walking contracts or handling slip & falls for the local supermarket. If you don't get into a good school, wait a year, take the LSAT again and pray. It's not worth the 100k+ just to say you're a law student.

Ben of CA 1:03PM February 10, 2009

To TexasColonel:

Your third point is absolutely wrong. The vast majority of lawyers are NOT litigators; they do transactional work, and few lawyers will actually ever see the inside of the court room during their practice.

Just wanted to correct that.

Paul of DC 9:57PM February 05, 2009

The above seems to imply pretty clearly they are going to be ranking PT as seperate from the FT programs. Obviously the Gtown, GW, etc lobby won out over integrity in the rankings, given nearly all of these students transfer into the FT program after 1L.

Paul of DC 9:52PM February 05, 2009

I understand that the % of students with a job at the time of graduation takes into account part time students too. So, how would this change with a separate part -time ranking?

law student of DC 3:30PM February 03, 2009

***IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT LAW SCHOOL PLEASE READ THIS***

I find that there are more and more young people (even those just beginning high school) boldly, albeit naively, exclaiming that the want to go to law school and become "lawyers". But, in all of their naive innocence, what they don't realize is that law school is NOT what it is all hiped up to be.

First, if you're thinking of having fun in law school, THINK AGAIN! The three or four years of law school is designed to be nothing less than a willpower-testing and emotionally-defeating experience. If you think getting into law school is hard, GETTING OUT is ten times HARDER. Over the many decades of developing the modern law school experience in the US, law schools have come up with tools such as the Socratic Method, the first year curve, rankings and law review honors to "weed out" those whose resolve is not strong enough to be there. Once you are in law school, I guarantee you (and no one is an exception to this - whether you're at Harvard or Thomas Cooley) that you will question yourself time and time again, "do I belong here" or "what else could I be doing" or "where am I headed".

Second, law school is a tremendous financial endeaver. While some of you may not be concerned with this aspect of law school yet, you will realize that the average law school debt of $100,000 is nothing to take lightly. Even though your parents may be glad to take out that second mortgage for you to be able to pursue your dream, in effect, it all comes down to a $100,000 loss or, rather, a $100,000 opportunity cost (i.e. $100,000 is plenty of money to, in fact, start your own business/company after college). It also boggles the senses, why professionals, in this bad economy, are willing to leave their jobs in order to get MORE DEBT for something that is definitely not a sure thing. I will tell these people that you are definitely looking in the wrong place. Career changes rarely make people happier and the last place where you will find happiness is in the legal profession - which is a cruel cruel world for those who don't know - comprised of bitter drawn out feuds one after the other.

Third, while a law degree is versatile in some ways, the overwhelming majority of lawyers are litigators. In other words, if you don't like speaking in public, don't like being in courtrooms and don't like reading and writing hundreds of pages of legal documents, and don't like being constantly criticized for your work, then being a lawyer will probably not make you happy. Perhaps, another "bubble burster" is that most lawyers don't make six figures starting salaries as much as Hollywood would like to have us believe. While they do make more than the average college graduate, most lawyers only make about $10,000-$30,000 more on average. Oh, don't forget about the debt that I mentioned earlier. You may be paying about $1000 per month for several years until the principle and interest is paid off for your legal education.

Fourth, being a lawyer is NOT as marketable as is used to be. In fact, it is a fact that people with technical knowledge and skills have a much easier time finding jobs. The US, especially, is lacking in this area. It is no wonder why, we have to draw foreigners to the US with full tuitions to boost our technical know-how. I guarantee you that a chemical engineer is much more marketable today than your average lawyer. If you want job security, the key is to MAKE yourself MARKETABLE. You can do this by studying math, science, engineer, diplomacy, economics and, to a lesser extent, even business.

So, to conclude, consider your options before even thinking of applying to law school. It is a decision not to be taken lightly. While it makes some people successful in the end, it makes most misersable. And if you are still in high school, then you'll find your interests might change several times over and you may entirely forget about law school (for whatever reason you wanted it in the first place). For those thinking of a career change in this aweful economy, you should also seriously rethink your options. While prospects may be poor now, recessions ALWAYS turn around eventually. It is normal to be unhappy in such a difficult time, but you should feel GOOD knowing that you don't have it all that bad (this is truly nothing compared to the Great Depression Era). You have food on your plate and you are still able to enjoy life, even if you do have to be more thrifty. But trying to throw money at your problems to put yourself in more debt (like the US government is now doing) will NOT solve your problem. Repeat after me: this will NOT solve my problems!

TexasColonel of NY 1:43AM January 31, 2009

Part-time education involves slightly different dynamics than full-time, even though many schools' PT and FT curricula are taught by the same faculty. First, part-time programs must approach education in slightly different ways, because they consist of more students who have not sat in classrooms for several years. Secondly, schools with PT programs would be penalized for being "inclusive".

Is inclusivity, the practice of providing working adults and students with slightly lower numbers (but nonetheless outstanding profiles) an opportunity to attend law school a "negative" quality in a school?

The only people who would think so are elitists who believe their own LSAT scores and GPA's make them "superior" beings, nevermind that those things fail to predict with any accuracy the performances of lawyers.

Ranking schools with PT programs against each other is the right thing to do. And if I had my druthers, USNWR would strive to lower the impact(s) the LSAT's and GPA's of schools' incoming classes have on schools' rankings altogether.

The current weights have caused absolute chaos in the law school application process, by steering applicants to schools in which they would/should have little or no interest, and unfairly costing highly competent admissions staffers their jobs. In a way, this is playing God, and I disagree with it.

BTW: I am a 3.6/168 headed for Northwestern, lest you think I am one of those so-called "less qualified" applicants who might be steered into a PT program.

Ivan of WA 1:41AM January 31, 2009

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Morse Code: Inside the College Rankings

Robert Morse is director of data research for U.S.News & World Report and has worked at the company since 1976. He develops the methodologies and surveys for the Best Colleges and Best Graduate Schools annual rankings, keeping an eye on higher-education trends to make sure the rankings offer prospective students the best analysis available. Morse Code provides deeper insights into the methodologies and is a forum for commentary and analysis of college, grad, and other rankings.

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