Why Men Are So Good at Dying

our fault

this is an excellent post. I found it not only informative (More men die from diabetes? From the flu?) but also thought provoking and sensitive. Have there been any studies that have shown men's higher death rates to be attributed to biological or genetic causes--ie, any causes other than behavioral, socialized ones? (Perhaps, evolutionarily, men are expendable...?) I would like to know if its really all our fault. If it really is, then education is important in impacting some sort of social change.

Adam Voiland's reply: I didn’t mean to imply that the health disparity is entirely men’s fault. Yes, improving men’s health behaviors would go a long ways. That’s not to say, however, that other factors that men can’t control as easily are not playing a role as well. Biological difference could account for some of the difference. Men tend to predominate in dangerous industries such as mining, agriculture, and construction. Fewer men than women have health insurance. Perhaps certain environmental toxins in our air and water are even negatively affecting men. And, finally, for some conditions that affect men--such as prostate cancer--we could certainly use better screening and treatment options.

whining

As a white male I take my health quite seriously and consider this a worthy topic. But, I would group the "grousing" of the "male activists" under the heading of whining. Any impartial observer would recognize that women and minorities were denied many opportunities in the past which may have resulted in biases in health research. The complaints of the "pro man" forces seem to be less about health and more about the general social state of men. There is a great deal of anxiety regarding mens education, job attainment and incomes. This, I believe, stems from the fact that there are increasing numbers of competent women and men from all races entering the workforce. To those incompetent men in the workforce it may feel unfair that now they can't have their cream puff job because there are many many more competent women waiting to take it. So they are making a sex based argument (men are being discriminated against!) to maintain their positions. I see the mens health argument as another prong of this attack that seeks to roll back the meritocracy society has diligently built and bring back the "old boys club". Because, after all, just being a boy is easier than going to college, graduate school and working hard for a living. So MAN UP! Stop whining, be thoughtful, creative and diligent and you will never have to worry about "some girl stealing your job" Pathetic.

health research on men vs women

The main reason that more medical research was done on men in decades past is because researchers didn't want subjects who might become pregnant during the course of the research--a drug that might be safe on an adult could be disastrous for a fetus. The women's movement leaves that info out, leading the public to conclude that the reason was sexism.

Too, I believe you are painting with a too-broad brush the notion that men don't take care of themselves. The three major behaviors leading to disease are smoking, drinking, and obesity. If I recall correctly, men smoke only slightly more than women, women are more often obese, and drinking rates are about equal.

Adam Voiland's reply: You mentioned that I may have painted with too broad a brush the notion that men do a poor job of maintaining their health. I reviewed the stats from the CDC's Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System (http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/brfss/Trends/TrendData.asp?state=US&qkey=10080). Here is the detailed breakdown of some behavioral risk factors for the most recent year available. The data are collected via a nationwide telephone survey and represent national averages.

Binge Drinking: Men 24.4%, Women 8.1%

Chronic Drinking: Men 7.1%, Women 4.5%

Smoking: Men 25.7%, Women 20.8 %

No Cholesterol Check in Last 5 years: Men 29.5 %, Women 25.3%

No Health Insurance: Men 16.2%, Women 12.6%

Not Enough Fruits/Vegetables: Men 82.2%, Women 72.2%

Obese: Men 23.1%, Women 21.4 %

Overweight: Men 44.7%, Women 29.5%

Though not comprehensive, these data do, I think, suggest that behavior is a key component of the mortality disparity. I'm not an epidemiologist, but it makes intuitive sense that all of these slight differences might even account for a significant portion of the 5 year difference. That's not to say, of course, that other factors don't also play a role.

Men's Health

Yes! There is a real challenge to getting men's health on the political agenda. It appears that the demands on the health care system are so great that politicians are concerned about designating new areas for research and treatment that may arrise if more attention is paid to men's health.

Nevertheless, as the last paragraph of the article points out, many men's health problems are preventable through pro-active health promotion activities. Men and women need to find the time or make the time to be pro-active about their health so that they won't be a burden on the health care system. In particular, men who make up the vast majority of commuters need to find ways to reduce their commuting and spend more time exercising and doing other health promoting activities that may include yoga, meditation and exercise for their heart!

Finally, while Canada is often seen as having a superior health care system compared to the U.S., men in Canada still have the same degree health problems as do men in the U.S. Men in Canada may get more timely and cost effective treatment but they don't get enough health promotion information compared to the U.S.

Death by vehicles

My late husband was rear-ended four times in the last four years of his life. He was STOPPED in every case at a red light or a stop sign. None of the drivers were drunk, and all drivers were white males except for one Chinese guy who did not speak English. That was too much speed and carelessness as well. That said, my husband also had high blood pressure, diabetes and had recently been diagnosed with cancer. He could have had an operation for $30,000 but with a 50% chance of paralysis. He valued the quality of life (72 years old when he died of a heart attack while working in his yard). He elected to die on his own terms and did. He carred a printed card that told paramedics and physicians not to do anything heroric to save his life. He was a Korean "War" survivor (wounded), an ace private pilot, and a Formula One race car driver in his younger years. He had never been injured in any of those private occupations. His believed that no one got off Planer Earth alive except for an occasional space rider--and only temporarily. None of us lives forever. I had the luck to be married to him for nearly 35 years. Live every day to the fullest; it could be your last.

Adam Voiland's reply: That's a great point, Sue. Fearing death (or injury)--at the loss of savoring and enjoying life--seems like no way to live to me. Thanks for sharing your story.

Time for equal health for men

Adam,

You make some great points about men not doing enough of what they should and too much of what they shouldn't. Perhaps this is somewhat due to societal pressures and an expectation of men to be manly or just carelessness by some men. Personally, I take my health very personal and want my problems kept private. If other men feel this way, maybe the message just isn't getting out that we all need to do more.

In any case, I believe the Constitutional principles of 'equal treatment under the law' and 'no discrimination based on gender' provides enough reason for men's health to get equal attention and funding from government. At the very least, there needs to be more AWARENESS of the problems and an attempt to ELIMINATE any STIGMA for men who speak out about their health problems, just as it's been done for victims of rape, breast cancer, and AIDS.

On another note, we don't blame the victims of rape (nor should we) even if they were somewhat careless about their own safety, and we shouldn't blame the victims of heart disease and prostate cancer when they were careless about their health.

Characterized as "hard won":

"Part of the reason an Office of Men's Health has been so long in coming is the common but nonetheless false perception that the government and the scientific community have paid more attention to men's health than to women's. In 1990 Senator Barbara Mikulski (D-MD) made national headlines by citing the fact that women-specific health research comprised only 14% of the budget of the National Institute of Health (NIH). She called it "blatant discrimination" and led the successful campaign for the creation of the OWH. What Mikulski and many in the media who publicized Mikulski's claims did not understand was that only 6.5% of the NIH's budget went to male-specific research--the vast majority of the NIH's research was gender neutral."

Characterized as "starting a gender war":

"In fact, prostate cancer makes up 37% of all cancer cases but receives only 5% of federal research funding. In addition, the breast cancer postage stamp has raised over $25 million for breast cancer research since it began in 1998, while a 1999 bill proposing a similar stamp for prostate cancer research was unsuccessful.

When Congress formed the Office on Women's Health in 1991, its goal was to improve women's health by directing and coordinating women's health research, health care services, and health education. Since then men's health advocates have been trying to create an Office of Men's Health, with the goal of duplicating the OWH's success. Yet while a new bill which will help to make the OWH's funding permanent was just passed by the House, the Men's Health Act of 2001 (H.R. 632) remains trapped in the House Energy and Commerce Committee's subcommittee on health. If not rescued soon, the bill will die when the 107th Congress adjourns this fall."

Stress from Medical Information Kills

Perhaps too much health information leads to too much stress which leads to death? Anybody measure that? Focusing on how to avoid illness, while not focusing on living well, results is a life wasted. Those who exercise usally are doing something positive and have more purpose in life. Get outside, get involved, help others, eat well and what you want but in moderation and I bet most would add several years to a life.

Whining? Speak for yourself

To "man up of TX"

You think it's "whining" to demand more than 5 percent of funding for prostate cancer research when prostate cancer makes up 37% of all cancer cases?

This is demanding equal treatment, which men do not get, as these stats and this article point out. Men also die in 98 percent of workplace injuries. Where is the equality in that.

Perhaps we should demand real equal treatment. We can have women do society's dangerous jobs, such as roofers, instead of prancing around on high heels performing the useless paper-pushing red tape "jobs" the government created for women.

Also, the phrase you use "man up" is yet another whiny female way of getting men to treat them like princesses while women get to hypocritically then demand "equality." The only way American men should "man up" is to go nowhere near American "women" like yourself.

Whiner.

Why Men Are So Good at Dying

Two misleading comments in this article merit a response.

First, the reason that men fail to visit doctors as often as women is because employers are generally more willing to let women take time off for such visits. Since more women don't work full time, they don't have to get a boss's permission anyway. Also, even when they do work, most employers are more lenient about their absence than they are for men. While there is seldom a formal policy discouraging men to take the time off, the unspoken condemnation firm.

Second, the reason that most medical research prior to 1991 was done on men was because out society is more willing to put men at risk. The military services provided many of the individuals who were tested, and they happened to be mostly males. For example, to evaluate the effects of nuclear radiation male soldiers were placed in proximity to atomic explosions.

Feminist merely grabbed onto the statistic that most of those tested were male and thereby whined that they needed more money for female-specific research. They totally ignored the female-advantaged reasons that most of the testing was on men.

A third point also warrants comment. Specifically, why the question of men's shorter lifespan only comes-up in a column about men. If the reverse were true, it would be never-ending demands on the front pages of all news publications demanding that the government take action to correct the situation.

Propganda about men's health issues.

Sally Satel MD in her book PC MD shows that womens health, despite public perceptions, wasn't neglected. If anything, we have always had more funding for women and have always tended to be more protective of women.

When feminists, including politicians, a few years ago saw that 14% of the National Health budget was for women they assumed, as feminist tend to do, that women were being ripped off. It turned out that the rest of the budget was for both genders and there was no seperate budget for men's health.

If women were dying in greater numbers as men are, and then others blamed women, there would be an outcry. Blaming men is what our culture does. Men work hard, 93 percent of the deaths in the work place are male deaths, no one cares. Really, no one cares.

If women were dying in such numbers every "gender studies" class would sear that number into the students brains.

SD

Your fundamental misconception

It's wrong to say that in the past, men's health was focused on at the expense of women's. To quote Warren Farrell in

"The Myth of Male Power" (p. 189), "we do more research on men in prison, men in the military, and men in general than on women, for the same reason we do more research on rats than we do on humans." That is the reason so many studies used men. That does not imply that men's health is what was being focused on. The vast majority of health studies (approximately 85% according to the NIH) focus, now as in the past, on non-gender-specific health problems.

Neglected women's health

Around 1900 men and women had a very short life expectancy. Less then 40 years. Since that time there has been dramatic improvement in both men and women's life expectancy but more so for women. There never has been a time (at least in the last hundred years) when women's health has been negected in favor men. Claims along those lines have been shown to be false. Yet radicals in the women movement have trumped up charges of discrimination to force disproportiate research and funding for women's health issues. I can't drive for 2 minutes without seeing one of those stupid pink ribbons yet more men die of prostrate cancer than women die of breast cancer. I don't think we need a national men's health office but, by the same token, I think the national women's health office should be shut down. Let's just care of our citizens... men and women... and not start this silly divisiveness.

Your secondary misconception

Your pointing out the various behaviors such as smoking, drinking, etc by men, as at a greater rate than that of women, fails to take into account two things:

1) Undue societal pressure on men, as compared to women, to achieve, be successful, and support a family (the male is still the primary bread-winner in most families); and ramapant misandry, and bias and discrimination against men in today's society, which is bound to cause increases in some of these behaviours you mention; and,

2) The plain fact that males have not had their "awareness raised" (a phrase which the media is tiresomely fond of), to the extent that women have, on how to address and prevent some of these problems. Women have been encouraged to come forward more than men have, and provided with more gender-specific programs, tests, etc., to do something about them.

What you are doing here amounts to blaming the victim.

To Tony S of DE

Let's begin with your cherry picked statistics then we will move on to the failed attempts at name calling.

I am not an expert, nor claim to be, on health funding. But I can read a chart. If you visit here

http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/uscs/Table.aspx?Group=TableAll&Year=2004&Display=n

you will find a handy chart that shows the incidence and mortality rates for all cancer types. Though the chart does not show percentages, a simple calculation reveals that prostate cancer accounts for only 27% of male cancers, not 37%. Starting your rant with a lie is usually a bad idea. If you click over and look at mortality you find that only 10% of cancer fatalities are due to prostate cancer, which means it's a pretty beatable disease. Breast cancer, on the other hand, accounts for 15% of female cancer fatalities. Does a 5% difference justify a spending difference? I don't know. I think that depends on the specifics of the two diseases and the age at which they affect people. (Prostate cancer affects predominately older men in their 70s and 80s where breast cancer strikes much younger women.) Clearly it's a more complex picture than waving a few numbers around, jumping up and down and whining "Mommy it's not fair she got the money!!!"

And to be honest, I would have respected your argument if it hadn't been followed by a hysterical angry screed against women. It seems you have some sort of issue regarding women in the government workforce. It would seem you believe the government is comprised of only women in high heels. This is patently ridiculous at all levels. As we know we have never had a female president, (not fair!) there are only 16 female senators (that's 16% and there are 51% women in the country). As for the rest of the government sector statistics can be found here.

http://www.govexec.com/features/0204/0204s2.htm

Essentially only 45% of the rank and file government "paper pushers" are women and only 14.6% of the management are women. Totally not fair.

You have only made my point that your anxiety about health funding is simply an offshoot of your economic anxieties as an incompetent man being pressured in the workplace. When you could have continued with a rational reasoned argument regarding health care you simply veered off topic revealing the true nature of your upset.

Though I recognize you are upset with the term MAN UP. It was meant to comical and jovial similar to the "Go Team" or "Saddle Up" that we men use during sports events. I know sometimes it's hard to buck up and keep a stiff upper lip under the onslaught, but that's why we need to encourage each other to avoid whining and to maintain some level of dignity in our collective comportment as men. As an avid athlete who runs marathons, competes in triathlons, and have played multiple team sports (soccer, basketball, volleyball) I was only trying to appeal to my fellow sportsmen.

Lastly, if you want to stay away from the American "women" I fully encourage you to do so. Not only will you avoid getting slapped, but men who don't whine will get all the girls! Everyone will be happier!

Michael H

Men's health can suffer if as fathers, they are separated from their children using the force of government based on no fault divorce.

Lawyers encourage mothers to make claims of abuse for tactical advantage in family courts.

"As we know we have never had a female president, (not fair!) there are only 16 female senators (that's 16% and there are 51% women in the country). "

How many of us are parents, and how many of us are Senators and Presidents?

The rest of the story

"As we know we have never had a female president, (not fair!) there are only 16 female senators (that's 16% and there are 51% women in the country). "

It's also true that 85% of the street homless are men (Warren Farrell, Myth of Male Power), and in dangerous occupations such as firefighter, miner, and construction worker, 94-99% of on-the-job fatalaties are men (also Farrell). Not to mention that only men are required to register for the draft.

And guess what?? There's a lot more soldiers, miners, firefighters, construction workers, and homeless who are men, than all these politicians you're talking about. In fact I would wager that there are more homeless men alone in this country, than there are politicians of any type who are men. New York City alone has 48,000 homeless people (USA Today, 3/17/08).

Oh, I almost forgot to mention, the term "homeless" wasn't invented until the 80's, when it came to be recognized that there were a few women on the scene. Prior to that, they (homeless men) were just "bums".

Good news for someone who's ignorant

PS: I don't know about the other guy, but I myself do stay away from American women. Hope that made your day.

Staying on topic

Clearly everyone posting has an opinion regarding men's issues. But each of you continue to reinforce my point that your anxiety stems from some sort of economic or social anxiety and not actual health issues. I have yet to see any substantive discussion of explicitly HEALTH related concerns. Somehow each of you wraps your pet issue into each comment. Michael H comments about no-fault divorce while Norman Lathers has concerns about homelessness. These could relate to health in very direct ways, but both of you quote my comment regarding gender disparities in politics instead of substantiating your arguments (which was in response to another off topic post and "tongue in cheek" to boot). I recognize these other issues as valid and worthy of reasoned debate and discussion, but continually expanding the scope of the discussion with inflammatory rhetoric helps no one. I fundamentally believe the economy and society is expansive enough for men and women to both be able to achieve great things. The divisive belief that one's success comes at the expense of another cannot be the foundation for our society, politics, research or health policy.

Men And Fathers Give To Everyone Else

It is sad that the United State neglects men and does not treat them equally. This gender bias is destroying our children by forcing them to live in single parent home where they grow up with no father to teach them from a male role-model stand point. These children look for a father figure that is not there a ghost by getting into gangs, drugs, and crime. Young girls are 40x likely to experience teenage pregnancy. 92% of all rapists come from single parent homes. Our government is funding the breakup and destruction of families through law 666 of Title IV-D and VAWA. Both mothers and fathers need to raise their children equally.

Marcy Ganz

San Diego, CA

http://crispe.org

On Topic

Can you comment on the alleged disparity between prostate and breast cancer funding? No fair-minded person would advocate cutting back funding for breast cancer, but from what I've seen, there is a disparity. I suspect it may be due to some of the issues you discuss -- men don't even like to talk about disease, especially THAT disease (or,heaven forbid, testicular cancer), much less spearhead action to combat it. But the fact that men are complacent doesn't seem like an appropriate reason for the disparity.

Also isn't it appropriate to seek funding to raise awareness in general for risk-taking men -- men are dying at higher rates than women, and if education can stem that, why shouldn't we be doing it? Men's health affects women and vice versa, so this really shouldn't be a sphere where the silly gender wars are injected.

Campaign against death

I am not against death. Resistance is futile, after all. I am against discomfort. Besides, I have never been dead and may find it companionable.

Medical/technical intervention against disease is unfair to all ailments. Clean living is a concession to political correctness. All decadence may be rationalized and doom is inevitable.

Keep a happy thought.

Michael H

"I recognize these other issues as valid and worthy of reasoned debate and discussion, but continually expanding the scope of the discussion with inflammatory rhetoric helps no one. "

Men's health can suffer if as fathers, they are separated from their children using the force of government based on no fault divorce is not inflammatory rhetoric.

"The divisive belief that one's success comes at the expense of another cannot be the foundation for our society, politics, research or health policy."

"When Congress formed the Office on Women's Health in 1991, its goal was to improve women's health by directing and coordinating women's health research, health care services, and health education. Since then men's health advocates have been trying to create an Office of Men's Health, with the goal of duplicating the OWH's success. Yet while a new bill which will help to make the OWH's funding permanent was just passed by the House, the Men's Health Act of 2001 (H.R. 632) remains trapped in the House Energy and Commerce Committee's subcommittee on health. If not rescued soon, the bill will die when the 107th Congress adjourns this fall." is not divisive.

Men are stubborn

I believe there should be a research organization specifically for women because women create life, without them we don't exist. My father passed away from colon cancer and he did all five of the behaviors, he didn't smoke or drink, he worked out religiously, he kept his weight down and he was not diabetic. But he did have ankylosing spodilytis in his neck vertebrae and he internalized the stress that he experienced. I don't believe cancer research, whether it be for men or women, is being adequately conducted because if researchers came up with a cure for cancer, the big insurance companies and health care providers would lose a significant amount of revenue. You get a sense for this when someone in your family dies of cancer. After all the millions of dollars that are raised, you'd think there'd be more results by now. But what men can do is be more proactive and pursue wholistic approaches that are not necesarily stamped by the FDA or medical associations as proven effective or safe. Women are generally more open minded and willing to try alternative forms of treatments, supplements, diets, etc. such as colon cleansing, the use of trampolines to create oxygen flow to body cells, wheatgrass supplements, Goji juice, and cardiovascular exercise. When you go to the gym, you see the men doing their "prison workout" all chest and arms, no legs and no treadmill. the women are in yoga and kickboxing aerobics classes and hogging all the cardio equipment. Men should take note and get smart about their health. There are definitely hardware differences, but does there really need to be a separate mens health office? I say no. Let's waste our money on something else like alternative fuel vehicles. My two cents.

The Medical System Flaws

Your article on "Why Men are So Good at Diying" doesn't consider the fact that more men may not be able to afford health insurance than women. The reasons are so nebulous you simply can't lay the onus on men for not having it. For instance, if you were a father with a wife and family, say two children and you could only afford to insure three members of you family, who would you insure first?

Also, you fail to mention that our health care system is broken. I have first hand knowledge of that from enduring three serious brain operations. I almost lost sight in my left eye because a brain infection resulting from medical screw ups. It was a terrible experience and I am thoroughly mistrustful of the medical establishment for having been treated like a second class lab rat at the University of Washington and other medical institutions during this ordeal. It leaves me wondering what action would be taken if women were treated as badly as I.

mens health and government

Are you kidding? You want government involved in your health. The same government that for thirty years now has told you to stop eating fat to reduce fat but not mentioned that carbohydrates are what induce insulin reactions, the same government that lets billion dollar companies market killing products that have less beneficial effect than old products and cost twice as much...(we call those designer euthanasia drugs), the same government that knows children are going down a rapid decline in abilities and health in direct correlation to fatherless family statistics, the same government that punishes divorcing parents with a mandated courtroom gladiator battle as a final product in family courts that is guaranteed to cause hate before theyes of the children instead of carefully monitoring intention and behavior in a different divorce format, the same governernment? That government?

I am pretty sure males can do better with just a mens data page on the web, citizen in scope with elected editors and no adverstising, some brotherly encouragement, discussions and results of puhblished research reviewed and discussed on their own. What do you know, men might begin to feel better if they talked to people (other men and women) that respected them, liked them and wasn't trying to drive them out of family life, human dignity and debase a gender. I agree that males are the new social trash trend when it comes to family paricipation and this is maintained by false and fraudulent psychology and psychiatry interests along with legal monoploies and divorce industry generated wealth.

But to ask government to save you? Get a grip, we are governemnt in the making, what we discuss gets around sooner or later. we are already on the right track, juist stay on it, forget the handouts. SL

anti-male bias - the new American apple pie

Why are the bills that would increase funding for prostate cancer stuck in congress and the senate when most of the members of congress and the senate are male?

Its because American men are pitted against other men from a very early age,.and the Feminist movement, (which is now run on a completely anti-male platform) has exploited and actually encouraged this male-on male violence to harm the average man in virtually all family, social, judicial and career related areas. While the feminists have made an industry of "stopping violence against women" they have remained curiously silent about "stopping violence against men" Many men are killed or seriously hurt by other men who have been egged on by women.

Leaders" like Joe Biden of Delaware are among the most anti-male legislators, and the male population of Delaware does not seem to care about voting him out of office.

Try reading Time magazine or Newsweek or the NY Times - almost every issue has blatantly anti-male articles and yet men do not protest or write to the editor or rally to support other men who have the courage to stand up. In fact, many American men will try to improve their "social standing" with women by attacking men who have the c ourage to stand up to the anti-male lobby.

The anti-male lobby is intent on spreading the "fact" that compassion, decency, eacademic success and civility are the province of women, and that men are solely interested in sex and violence. Yet, American men remain silent - not a single protest or letter to the editor. Not only have these men played a role in destroying their male peers but worst of all, they have undermined the futures of their sons. You wll almost never see a letter or book or article on "Fathers speaking up for their sons" and yet there are hundreds of such articles on "Fathers and daughters"

.This sort of bizzare Oedipal behavior took root since the 1970's and now pervades the entire American political, judicial and social system system to the point of astonishing observers from abroad. Why are American men so willing to kill and maim other men and so spineless and weak when it comes to standing up to injustice against their brothers? Its no wonder that men are dying in disproportionately greater numbers.

Lets start by having each one of you write a letter objecting to anti-male bias when you see it on MSN or CNN or Time or Newsweek or any other media outlet. Have courage, develop some backbone and take back your mental and physical health.

men don't communicate enough

it is true. we don't.

we don't inform the public that women abuse and murder far more children than do men in American families.

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm04/figure4_2.htm

The link is from our US government. And that body of politicians feels it is more important to pass sexist legislation in the form of the Violence Against Women Act (as sexist title) when hundreds of academic research projects shows conclusively that women are just as, if not more, violent than are men.

http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2006/may/em_060519male

The feminist propoganda machine has been running in high gear for 40 years. Now the truth is coming out, and it isn't "ginger and spice and everything nice". It is showing that women are just as vile and corrupt as are men. They are not the fairer sex at all.

And it is time that men and women are treated equally by the laws. It is time women are brought down off of their pedestals.

It is time women sign up for the draft just as men are required to do. It is time women pay their way.