Francis Collins: A Scientific Basis for God

Sam Harris' bias

Fascinating that Harris would complain as he has admitted that he, himself, is becoming a scientist not in order to conduct unbiased research but in order to evidence his atheist presuppositions.

http://atheismisdead.blogspot.com/2009/05/atheism-new-emergent-atheists-part-2-of.html

Scientific Belief In God?

Sam Harris asks: Why do we suffer?

Because we still appease fundamentalists in general, and Catholics in particular over religious issues that keep interfering with political and scientific decisions over the humanity of people. Are there any free thinkers left who want to make sure church and state are completely separated?

Chaos

Why can order come out of chaos? Or why doesn't chaos remain chaos? Or where does order come from?

Why is it possible for something made of bits of matter to even ponder what chaos is?

The science of mathematics or any other discipline for that matter doesn't exist outside the human mind. Mathematical symbols on paper is not mathematics. It is the understanding of those symbols and how they relate is mathematics. Where does the ability for symbolic thought come from?

Science cannot explain these questions, only validate and explain the physical. It is easy to enough say that it exists and that is the end of it. But it still doesn't explain why.

DEBUNKING FUNDAMENTALISM FURTHER

Why is it always the zealots-arguably the least educated and most likely to cause wars-who set public policy in countries throughout the world?

George W. Bush set international relations back 100 years with his fundamentalist approach to governing the United States in the face of fundamentalist Islamic morons attempting to destroy us. These people were all made for each other and I dearly wish they'd leave the rest of us the hell alone.

Biologos is a sound, reasonable theory presented by a sound reasonable man of faith who also happens to be a world renowned scientist. Maybe we should all sit up and pay attention.

Plenty of people will set sail to either attach their own agendas to Francis Collins' hypothesis, while plenty more will set out to discredit and/or destroy him.

Maybe what we all should do is give some serious thought to the fact that science and religion are not mutually exclusive. Maybe what we all should do is give God some credit for knowing what IT'S doing. (God shouldn't be assigned a gender until we know what God is).

Plenty of food for thought for the thoughtful souls; plenty of ammunition for the morons. Sorta like what Jesus attempted over 2000 years ago.

God, time and Science

If there is God what's his nature? Is he a person, a force, a thing, a spirit or the sum of everything? The bible says he is the Alpha and Omega. Everything comes and goes but there is something that is always there even when this universe assumes a different form.

Is there a begining and an end or what we have here is nothing more than change in seasons? That would mean that the big bang itself was an event that signalled changing seasons rather than a begining.

Then there is the concept of time. Who controls it? It's obvious that nothing in this universe stays in the same state. Things are constantly transformed from one state to another. Everything comes with a timer. Living and non living all die or are transformed and energy is released in the process. Right? Radiation, decay etc. How does the timer work? Is there a universal timer?

Was the big bang a random event or an event that happened in a sequence of events that are already planned? Will the universe contract at some point along the infinite timeline?

Beyond the Bible...

Rob D wrote: "You need to go beyond the Bible for the history of Jesus and beyond CHRISTIANS."

The Babylonian Talmud writes about the death of Christ, as does the Jewish historian Josephus, who lived around A.D. 37. Roman sources also attest to the life, death and impact of Jesus, although some from a dissenting point of view: Celsus, Lucian of Samsata (A.D. 115-200), and also Porphyry of Tyre. Cornelious Tacitus (Circa A.D. 55-120) described Jesus' death, and that he died under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius (Annals XV, 44). If you want to go beyond Christians, even within the Bible, look at the reactions of many of Jesus's enemies to his teaching. They could not argue with his miracles, so they resorted to claiming he was using Satan's power to accomplish them. Interesting...Lest you think I came up with some of the historical records on my own, rest assured, I am not a scholar. I site and recommend the book "Reasons We Believe" by Nathan Busenitz. It has numerous quotes and tons of footnotes that site early manuscripts...not just from the Bible, and not just from Christians.

You may not want to read a book written by a proponent of Christianity, because of its bias. However, I have read science books despite their bias, and read about evolution on the signs in the zoos. I believe that science is biased against anything that does not lead to a scientifically explainable conclusion. We all have the same facts to look at and draw conclusions, however, our background and beliefs influence the answers that we postulate. For science, anything in the realm of the supernatural would obviously fall into that category. Any scientist who postulated a supernatural line of reasoning would be ridiculed by the rest of the scientific world!

I was interested to look into Horus a bit, and, respectfully, I think that some fact checking might be in order. If you believe the story, which you didn't say that you do, I think that you're trusting in athiest propaganda. That goes back to the issue of bias.

By the way, I'm curious...what is the purpose of life, from your point of view? Is there any true meaning in it? Anyone else?

To Dan Murphy

"I place Darwinian evolution outside the realm of proven science. It is a theory." - You need to look up the definition of "theory" as it pertains to science. You're using the word as if evolution were a HYPOTHESIS. You can't take MOUNTAINS UPON MOUNTIANS of evidence and fossils and the same scientific processes that brought about numerous discoveries that allow you to do things like type a comment on a website and discredit it all with the word "theory". It's irrational. What about the germ theory? It's just a theory, right? God can have occured with evolution as an earthly process. I don't understand why Christians are so threatened.

"Investigate the life of Jesus Christ. He was most certainly a historical figure, and the Bible presents Jesus as God incarnate (John 1:14). Direct witnesses wrote about him, and told of miracles that were done before their very eyes. What do you make of this Jesus? " - Many historians lived during hte time of Jesus in the same geographical area as him. None covered his life. There has been one source who has been proven a fraud. The bible is mythical, not factual and there is nothing wrong with that. It's faith, so it can be based on anything, true or not!

I have investigated the life of Jesus. It was a fabrication based almost entirely on previous preChristian folklore. Like Horus or Attis or Krishna...it all goes back to sun worship.

You need to go beyond the bible for the history of Jesus and beyond CHRISTIANS. Why learn about say, Bill Clinton by reading bios from democrats? Of course it'll be bias. This is the beauty of science; there is NO bias because it has no agenda but to find the truth to all matters. How can you even visit a zoo and not see the simple truth to evolution?

Years and years before Jesus was the Egyptian sun god Horus:

Horus was born on December 25th (the day the sun begins to give us more light than the previous winter days)of the VIRGIN Isis-Meri. His birth was accompanied by a star in the east, which in turn, three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior (On 12/25 the brightest star in the east is Sirius marking the spot of the sunrise, in line with it are the 3 stars of Orion's belt...known as the three kings, go figure) At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher, and at the age of 30 he was baptized by a figure known as Anup and thus began his ministry. Horus had 12 disciples he traveled about with, performing miracles such as healing the sick and walking on water. Horus was known by many gestural names such as The Truth, The Light, God's Annointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God, and many others. After being betrayed by Typhon, Horus was crucified, buried for 3 days (the number of days it takes for the earth to start pitching back and bring more sunlight and longer days..rebirth of the SUN not SON), and thus, resurrected.

Horus sound a little familiar?

To Dan Murphy

"I place Darwinian evolution outside the realm of proven science. It is a theory." - You need to look up the definition of "theory" as it pertains to science. You're using the word as if evolution were a HYPOTHESIS. You can't take MOUNTAINS UPON MOUNTIANS of evidence and fossils and the same scientific processes that brought about numerous discoveries that allow you to do things like type a comment on a website and discredit it all with the word "theory". It's irrational. What about the germ theory? It's just a theory, right? God can have occured with evolution as an earthly process. I don't understand why Christians are so threatened.

"Investigate the life of Jesus Christ. He was most certainly a historical figure, and the Bible presents Jesus as God incarnate (John 1:14). Direct witnesses wrote about him, and told of miracles that were done before their very eyes. What do you make of this Jesus? " - Many historians lived during hte time of Jesus in the same geographical area as him. None covered his life. There has been one source who has been proven a fraud. The bible is mythical, not factual and there is nothing wrong with that. It's faith, so it can be based on anything, true or not!

I have investigated the life of Jesus. It was a fabrication based almost entirely on previous preChristian folklore. Like Horus or Attis or Krishna...it all goes back to sun worship.

You need to go beyond the bible for the history of Jesus and beyond CHRISTIANS. Why learn about say, Bill Clinton by reading bios from democrats? Of course it'll be bias. This is the beauty of science; there is NO bias because it has no agenda but to find the truth to all matters. How can you even visit a zoo and not see the simple truth to evolution?

Years and years before Jesus was the Egyptian sun god Horus:

Horus was born on December 25th (the day the sun begins to give us more light than the previous winter days)of the VIRGIN Isis-Meri. His birth was accompanied by a star in the east, which in turn, three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior (On 12/25 the brightest star in the east is Sirius marking the spot of the sunrise, in line with it are the 3 stars of Orion's belt...known as the three kings, go figure) At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher, and at the age of 30 [S22] [S23] he was baptized by a figure known as Anup [M] and thus began his ministry[S24] [M]. Horus had 12 disciples[S25] he traveled about with, performing miracles[S26] [S27]such as healing the sick[S28] and walking on water[S29]. Horus was known by many gestural names such as The Truth, The Light, God's Annointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God, and many others. After being betrayed by Typhon, Horus was crucified, buried for 3 days (the number of days it takes for the earth to start pitching back and bring more sunlight and longer days..rebirth of the SUN not SON), and thus, resurrected.

Horus sound a little familiar?

Postulate a creator?

For someone of Prof. Collins' obvious learning and credentials, I am dismayed with his rather shabby logic. Perhaps age weighs heavily on him.

First, simply because there are things we do not understand is not rational justification for assuming a "creator". We may, for instance, find a natural solution next year, or decade, or century. When we do, what becomes of Dr. Collins' creator then?

Second, requiring a creator for the existence of anything merely brings into play the law of regression. If nothing can exist without a creator, then who created the creator? And so on ad infinitum. Neither does resorting to the defense of a "first cause" mean anything - it is not an explanation, rather a conversation stopper. I would point out to Dr. Collins that 150 years ago a creator god was "necessary" to explain the diversity and complexity of life on earth. Yet he happily embraces evolution which answers that question and paints his god into a smaller corner. (See above)

And finally, of course, even if there is (was?) a creator god, there is no more evidence it is the Christian god than a Hindu, Norse, or ancient Egyptian one. Such pap is more than a leap of faith, it is a plunge into an intellectual black hole.

One problem with evolution

we are more closely linked with tigers and cows than monkeys. So much for that science.