Some Christians Protest Darwin's Birthday. Is Their Antagonism Misplaced?

What about you?

You admitted there was an empty tomb, but claimed the body was stolen. I just proved that the body could not have be stolen. So how do you account for the missing body?

In a mathematical equation where a variable can only equal one number, there are many possible answers as to the value of what that variable could be. However, there is only one right answer. All of the wrong answers have some relation to the correct answer, but only the right answer includes all of these similarities correctly. What you are suggesting about the myths of Greece and so forth is this: because the correct answer is too much like the wrong answers, the true value of the variable can not be correct. Whether it is a message of morality, about man's relationship to God, etc, all of the other religions contain bits and peices of the truth. But only Christianity makes those peices of truth fit together correctly.

Do you have any scientific evidence that there is no God?

I seek for nothing but truth.

Dryfire you are a funny guy

You are quoting stories that you present as evidence that your jesus existed and that he magically arose form the dead 2000 years ago. Have you ever seen the test where a single sentence is passed from person to person a few times and the story at the end miraculously nothing like at the first. Give hundreds of stories thousands of years and you have today’s bible. Repeatedly changed by both fraud, political motivations and losses in translation from language to language. The Dead Sea Scrolls are proof that Christian stories were borrowed from ancient societies and cultures thousands of years before jesus ever lived.

Here is what you need to do to prove that your God exists.. Find one piece of scientifically valid evidence and then present it to the world. Find scientific evidence of a world flood. Find the remains of the wooden boat that carried two specimens of every imaginable creature on planet earth, a boat that would have to be bigger than any ship known to man and beyond the technology of the greatest ship builders and super tankers afloat today. A boat mad made of wood, by one man.

Find DNA evidence of your jesus, perhaps from the shroud of turin (proven scientifically to be a fraud) or one single hair or bone. After all, you are talking about the most important person to ever exist. After all, we can extract DNA evidence from Neanderthals who lived tens of thousands of years before jesus. Find his DNA with only the MOTHERS mitochondrial DNA present. That would be a breathtaking and world changing discovery.

But no, you and none of your chritian cult members or anyone else will EVER be able to present such evidence because it does not exist. All you can do is quote tales of magic, drawn from Greek Mythology and ancient fairytales that endure through the ages just like Santa Claus. Just like the children who believe in Santa Claus for good reason (they get toys at Christmas) you believe in fairy tales for your own personal goals and aspirations having to mostly to do with an adult quest for power and prestige.

But what of the soldiers?

Roman soldiers were guarding the tomb. It is very unlikely that these men would have been overcome by a few fishermen. Also, seeing their master crucified by their enemies and their own religious authoritees would have left them very little motive to steal a body of a man proclaiming to be God. The idea of sleeping Roman soldiers is self-refuting. First of all, the Roman governing officers saw that Jesus was a political rabble rouser, hence the sign saying, "King of the Jews." So the Romans were going to be sure nothing happened to the body. Second, admitting that you were sleeping on the job would mean death if you were a Roman soldier, but nothing like that happened. Third, how could they have know that the disciples took the body if they were asleep? Fourth, how would the disciples, frightened and defeated, roll back the heavy stone covering the tomb without waking up the soldiers? There appears to be too much evidence against someone stealing the body of Jesus.

But you believe there is no God. Simply not believing in God does not refute His existence. That is why the origins of the universe are so important. This why humanity's innate sense of right and wrong provides so many important implications that need to be examined. If atheism can not give adequate reasons for each of these things, then perhaps atheism is unreliable.

For Dryfire

It is amusing that you would use the word “belief” to describe atheism. Atheism is the antithesis of belief. All atheism means is that a person does not BELIEVE in God. It is not a subscription to the Darwinian Theory of Evolution or the Big Bang Theory of the beginnings of the universe. There are no meetings, congregations, or atheist suicide bombers. It is NOT a religion and it amuses me when people who “believe” in something that is not factual look at the rest of society as if they do too.

To respond to your questions above, there is no doubt that Jesus lived. There is no doubt that he was the leader of a religious cult and that the ruling government at that time killed him. Those are facts that can be substantiated quite persuasively. What is in doubt is the magical qualities of the story of Jesus. He NEVER walked on water, delivered fish and loaves of bread from the sky, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind, turned water in to wine or arose from the dead!! It is easy to understand WHY people of faith want to believe those things and why religious leaders pass these stories on from generation to generation.

The fact is Jesus was the leader of one religious cult in a time when there were many religious cults. The fact that the story of Jesus survived is an accident of history and coincidence. The empty tomb of Jesus only proves his remains were stolen, just like grave robbers today only easier back then. The Bible is full of discredited stories the most relevant to this chain of arguments is the creation of the earth and the animals that inhabit it. Science has proven factually how the animals, including us, arose and the evidence is voluminous in its support. So what is it Dryfire? Is God a liar or was the Bible written by fallible and frail humans with a quest for power? I submit it was the later.

Not just emotion...

Looking at your comment, it seems part of the basis for your belief in atheism is emotional. My testimony does contain a personal experience, yet I have offered in my last post that there are verifiable reasons why I believe in the Christian God. No I am not going to ignore the past acts of actions done in the name of the Church, but neither am I going to forget what was done by atheistic regimes in the last century. Are you?

Do you understand the purposes behind the Law in the Old Testament? If not, I will be happy to explain them to you.

So what about the ancient historians who reference an historical person named Jesus of Palestine?

Why is there something rather than nothing?

Why does humanity have this innate sense of right and wrong?

What of the Resurrection and beginnings of Christianity?

Dryfire

All of your positions are based on how you feel. You follow your feelings and our heart and you have concluded that God exists, all the while criticizing those who follow their heart and have come to the opposite conclusion. Religion is the most destructive force on earth by far. The so-called terrorists are so convinced that God is on their side that they are willing to die for that belief. They still refer to us, and that means you, as CRUSADERS! Are you going to ignore the harm that organized religion has done to the human race for the last 2000 years?!

Here are a few of the versus from the bible that according to the believers are GODS WORDS!

Deuteronomy 21:18

'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of his father..'...or his mother.'...even when they punish him.'...his father and mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.''They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard."''All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.'

Deuteronomy 13:6-8

'If your brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife tries to secretly entice you, telling you to go and worship other gods, gods of people living near you, or far from you, or anywhere on earth, do not listen to him.'You must kill them. Show them no pity. And your hand must strike the first blow.'Then the hands of all the people. You shall stone them to death.'

Deuteronomy 13:13-15

'If you hear that in one of the towns, there are men who are telling people to go and worship other gods, it is your duty to look into the matter and examine it.''If it is proved and confirmed, you must put the inhabitants of that town to the sword.'

'You must lay the town under the curse of destruction, the town and everything in it.'

You must pile up all its loot in the public square and burn the town and all its loot.''That town is to be a ruin for all time, and never rebuilt.'

Leviticus 11:3

'You may eat any animal that has a cloven hoof, divided in two parts, and chews the cud.''Regard the camel as unclean, for though it chews the cud, it does not have a cloven hoof.''Regard the hyrax as unclean, for though it chews the cud, it does not have a clove hoof.''Regard the rabbit as unclean, for though it chews the cud, it does not have a cloven hoof.''Regard the pig as unclean, for though has a cloven hoof, it does not chew the cud.''Do not eat their meat or touch their dead bodies. You will regard them as unclean.' Leviticus 11:9

'Of all that lives in the waters of the seas and rivers, you may eat anything that has fins and scales.''But anything in the seas or rivers that does not have fins and scales, regard as an abomination. Do not eat their meat and regard their carcasses as an abomination.''Of the birds, regard the following as an abomination and do not eat them: the eagle, the osprey, the kite, the falcon, the raven, the horned owl, the nighthawk, the sea gull, hawks of all kinds, the little owl, the cormorant, the white owl, the desert owl, the carrion vulture, the stork, the heron, the hoopoe, and the bat.''Of the birds, regard the following as an abomination and do not eat them: the eagle, the osprey, the kite, the falcon, the raven, the horned owl, the nighthawk, the sea gull, hawks of all kinds, the little owl, the cormorant, the white owl, the desert owl, the carrion vulture, the stork, the heron, the hoopoe, and the bat.''Do not eat anything that crawls on its belly, whether it walks on four legs or more. They are an abomination.''There are, however, some winged insects you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. You may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper.''Wherever you live, you must not eat the blood of any bird or animal.'

To believe this drivel is ridiculous and to teach it to children is criminal.

My answers, but where are yours?

This universe is governed by scientific laws like conservation and the second law of thermodynamics. Without them, the universe we know would not exist. So how do I explain the existence of the cosmos? God. Think about it, He's timeless, powerful, and He is not bound to the natural laws in our universe so He would be capable of creatio ex nihilio. He makes the most logical sense. But how does atheism explain the origin of the universe?

There is a definite right and wrong. Humans have this innate sense of something being wrong or right. How would this help survival? You are confusing religious practices and beliefs with morality. Baptism is religious, but not an ethical. You know the actions of terrorists are wrong, but where did that knowledge of right and wrong come from?

No, they don't. But the question was not related to science. The question was about the reliability of the Bible. Each has confronted various authorities about Bible's accuracy. Again, they started as atheists, but they became Christians. So, what do you have to say about their work?

No, I don't believe their were "peer review journals" during their time. I am talking about Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), elder Clement's letter to the Corinthian Church (95 AD), Josephus of the first century AD, and others who all reference Jesus as being an historical person (a few even mention His resurrection). Most scholars also agree that there was indeed an empty tomb. So how does atheism explain these things?

What contraditions? What innaccuracies? How do Bible stories paralell Greek myths? Actually, even most liberal estimates place the writing of the gospels decades after the events actually took place. This would not be enough time for myths about Jesus to spring up because eye-witnesses would still be alive to testify against inaccuracies.

Again, you are making a false statement about me. I have studied math and science. That is why I know about the law of conservation and the second law of thermodynamics. How does evolution disprove God?

No it doesn't. In fact, we very little information about Buddha that was written when eye-witnesses of his life would have been recorded. I was born into a Christian family. When I was baptized I didn't know very much about it. Then one day I looked back on my life to see if God had even been there. I was astonished at how God had been there. I have a learning disability which has greatly hindered me. However, I realized that the help of my family and therapy were part of God's plan. When I was receiving help, I didn't like it because it made me feel stupid and useless. But looking back on it all, I know that each pain I had helped me to become stronger than before. As time went by, I began to seriously look into the Bible so that I might be able to give an answer for the hope which I profess (II Peter 3:15). And this is my hope: Jesus died for me on the cross for my sins and rose again.

Here are a few questions for you dryfire:

You said:"How can the universe exist without violating the second law of entropy or the law of conservation?" Prove that the Universe can exist without the violating the laws of physics

“How does absolute morality help survival in a world where on the fittest can survive?” Define absolute morality. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda have God on their side and are convinced of their absolute morality is superior to your definition and are willing to lay down their lives for it. Are you so convinced of your definition of morality that you are willing to die for it?

“What of the work of people like Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel which analyzes the reliability of Scripture?” What of the work of people like this? Are they degreed and respected scientist seeking the truth about the universe with credentials and papers that have been reviewed and studied by others in reputable scientific disciplines? If so please provide your references.

“What of the outside sources that make references to Jesus and His empty tomb?” What outside sources are these? Have they published their works in peer reviewed journals?

“Then, what about the people (including myself) around the world and through the centuries who have accepted the gospel message and the change that occurred afterward?” People like you and around the world simply have been mislead by an appealing message. You have studied religion and have not studied math and science. Religion is an easy thing to study because it requires no analytic thinking or formal schooling. The bible stories are based on Greek mythology and the story of Gilgamesh written thousands of years before Jesus was born. The story of Jesus was written hundreds of years after his death and filled with inaccuracies, contradictions, and lies by people who lived in a time when the wooden wheeled donkey cart was modern technology.

The Chinese and the Nepalese have believed in Buddha and Taoism for thousands of years before your Jesus was born. Does that make their religion more accurate and believable? These religions are far superior to your cristianity in terms of devotion morality, whay is it that EVERYONE in the world does not practice them. Are you a Christian because you were born accidentally in to it or did you make a conscious and informed decision? If you are so convinced that Darwins Theory of Evolution is wrong, then please go out and find a modern rabbit skeleton in the same geologic strata as a T Rex and you will have turned evolution on its head. You will be rich beyond your wildest imagination and the most famous person in the world, a hero to all who want to believe that ghosts and demons.

Off topic?

I have not denied science has helped mankind. That is not the topic of the debate. Rather, you have made an false assumption about me and my beliefs.

Now, then entropy does not affect biological evolution. I have never said that it did. You are putting words in my mouth. Entropy, however, does affect an eternal universe (which is how Carl Sagan and few others try to avoid a creator). Also, the energy in the sun would eventually become less useful. If the universe was eternal, then the energy needed for life would not be useable at all. However, we know that life on earth does exist and that stars are burning in the galaxy (and indeed throughout the universe), so the universe can not be eternal.

I never said you or anyone else here is arrogant. Again, you make a false assumption because of my beliefs.

You have not explained anything that I asked for explanation. Truth is better than illusion, yes? I know I prefer reality over imagination when it comes to topics like these. So then, if what you say is true, you should be able to explain these very simple things.

How can the universe exist without violating the second law of entropy or the law of conservation?

How does absolute morality help survival in a world where on the fittest can survive?

What of the work of people like Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel which analyzes the reliability of Scripture?

What of the outside sources that make references to Jesus and His empty tomb?

Then, what about the people (including myself) around the world and through the centuries who have accepted the gospel message and the change that occurred afterward?

For "ad hominem" Dryfire

Funny how ghost believers like yourself get confused between biology and physics, and when you are loosing the battle on evolution, BADLY, you switch the subject to physics and philosophy as it pertains to the universe. All the while arrogantly sitting in your scientifically designed world – your computer, electricity, heat, your health; airplanes and satellites circling overhead you state that scientists, who spend their lives studying these problems and their solutions, do not know what they are talking about. That sir is laughable. I sincerely suggest a book for you as a start, it is called Genetics for Dummies and can be found at your book store.

The second law of thermodynamics states “that total entropy (a measure of useful energy) in a closed system will not decrease.” This doesn’t apply to evolution for one good reason. The earth is not a closed system. The earth is always receiving energy from the sun. All it takes for evolution to work is reproduction, heritable variation, and selection. These happen all the time with no problem. (Berra, Evolution and the Myth of Creationism p. 126-127) (Shermer, Why People Believe Weird Things p. 149-150).

Also, as a statement of non-belief, ‘atheism’ is not inherently arrogant.

Often when a disbelief in deities is attested, the faithful believer will assert that it is arrogant for anyone to claim an absence of god. Where atheism becomes misconstrued lies in what believers feel it asserts. Many individuals, who do not understand the terminology, (while working within the parameters of absolutism from their own worldview) inappropriately interpret the word to make an absolute claim on the existence of god. This understanding is a misnomer; merely the term states, “I do not believe”.